As we explore the intersection of gastronomy and literature, we’ve had the opportunity to speak to a literary historian and a food journalist about our own culinary history. The series continues, and now we’re taking a look into the bottom of the pot through the eyes of a Hungarian chef. We spoke to the head chef of Gundel Restaurant, the only restaurant to feature on the list of ‘Hungarikums’.

If you think back to your childhood, what were the dishes that have stayed with you to this day?
The best way to start cooking well is to draw on your memories. We always build on what we bring with us from home or from our childhood, and these taste experiences have a huge influence on our future work as well. My grandmother, for example, used to cook very sweet dishes – I’m sure everyone understands what I mean. So in our household, for instance, pumpkin stew and pea stew were sweet. Although these dishes can be prepared in countless ways, in our family sweetness was part of our meals, and that’s why I, too, tend to cook with a sweeter touch. In our household, we didn’t serve pickles with roast meat, but compote, and all these experiences shape the way we think about gastronomy. At the same time, I was lucky because my parents and I used to go to restaurants very often, so I had the chance to try a wider variety of dishes, not just the usual ten to fifteen types of food that are generally prepared at home, so I became much more open-minded about gastronomy. Nevertheless, I’m not the classic chef who, watching over his grandmother’s shoulder, already knew he wanted to be a chef; it simply turned out this way, and I’m very grateful to fate that I found my calling straight away.

Gundel’s primary aim is to keep our traditions and our Hungarian gastronomic heritage alive – just as it is for you, given that you are one of the restaurant’s head chefs. I imagine you have no trouble identifying with this philosophy, as reconnecting with the past was already important to you before this. What expectations and objectives did you bring with you to the cradle of modern Hungarian cuisine?

I see gastronomy as a litmus test; it provides a very good reflection of our entire culture, and the majority of the dishes we now call ‘Hungarian cuisine’ were created in this very building. Of course, Hungarian cuisine existed before that, yet the work of Károly Gundel and the Gundel restaurant represent a significant milestone in Hungarian gastronomic history. Incidentally, for Károly Gundel, innovation was just as important as preserving tradition; for example, there were no sauces in Hungarian culinary culture, but Károly Gundel was an admirer of Escoffier, so he attempted to incorporate the French culture of sauces into Hungarian traditions. At the same time, let’s not forget that paprika chicken was also born here, and didn’t come with us on horseback over the Hargita Pass. What is also very important is that the chef at Gundel does not serve his own interests for their own sake; rather, every member of staff at Gundel, including the head chef, serves the cause of Gundel. Here, we do not cook merely for its own sake, but with respect for our traditions, whilst also incorporating our own innovations.

There is a very important underlying principle that Chef Viktor Moldován and I formulated even before we opened: we do not want to ‘rethink’ the dishes, but rather to ‘reconsider’ them.

Words have power; it matters how we approach certain things, and, incidentally, this phrasing also adds much more nuance to our objectives. We consider how a dish could be improved and which ingredients are best suited to it; the Eventrend Group not only supports this approach but also expects us to adopt it.

How interesting that Károly Gundel introduced these culinary innovations even though he didn’t actually cook himself.
Yes, because he was not primarily a chef, but a restaurant manager. At the same time, it is also very interesting that, historically speaking, it was not necessarily him who ran the Gundel restaurant, but his wife.

This is no coincidence, as Gundel is also renowned for having been a very family-oriented, hospitable restaurant. By ‘family-centred’, I mean, on the one hand, that Károly Gundel himself had a large family, and, on the other hand, that visitors were treated almost as if they were members of the family.

The fundamental idea behind Gundel – which we also follow – is that Gundel belongs to everyone. Because, as you say, Gundel used to belong to everyone. The garden was divided into three sections: the first section served the cheaper dishes, and here ‘cheap’ certainly does not mean poor-quality food, but rather things like beer-battered doughnuts, sausages or scrambled eggs. Everything that ordinary servants could afford. Further in, the more expensive, fashionable dishes appeared. It’s interesting, by the way, that cucumber was still considered a luxury dish back in the 1920s. That’s because Bulgarian horticulture was only just getting started at that time, and it was considered very expensive.

You’re no stranger to the world of fine dining; in fact, you’re completely at home in it. Yet at Gundel, you don’t take this approach. Are Hungarian gastronomy and fine dining two distinct genres?

Not necessarily, but I think the main thing about a restaurant is that the food should be good. Of course, there are different categories of restaurant, but in reality, in every one – be it a lángos stall, a fine-dining restaurant or a bistro – there’s only one thing to strive for: to bring out the very best in the dish in question. Gundel was essentially a garden restaurant, and preserving the character of this garden restaurant is part of upholding tradition – something that is incompatible with the fine dining style.

In 1862, Mór Jókai issued a call to Hungarian housewives, asking them to write down and send him recipes for traditional Hungarian dishes. This was accompanied by a list of dish names, which did not include goulash or chicken paprikash – not even those – but did feature Transylvanian sauerkraut, dill flatbread, Komárom fish soup or, indeed, ‘katakönyöke’. Bori Ács attempted to bring these recipes to life The Forgotten Hungarian Cuisine in her cookbook of the same name, which was published for this year’s Book Week. Have you heard about this book? Do you think that a general familiarity with these recipes could offer new opportunities for strengthening and promoting Hungarian gastronomy?

The primary aim of gastronomy is to work with high-quality ingredients. That said, it’s wonderful to see just how colourful Hungarian cuisine has been, even looking back. Back in the days of ‘goulash communism’ – as I call it – attempts were made to force Hungarian gastronomy into a centralised mould. Every restaurant served the same twenty or so dishes. Everywhere you’d find pork shoulder Holstein-style with steamed rice, though we do feel that we’ve never really been a rice-producing nation. Yet this still became part of our gastronomy, which I don’t see as a problem, as the world is constantly changing. Pork consumption wasn’t part of Hungarian gastronomy either, but there was a 150-year-long Turkish occupation, and they didn’t eat pork, so that’s what we were left with. But the message here isn’t that we should now start raising pigs on a massive scale to return to the past; rather, we should make good use of these traditions, approaching them with good taste to create dishes through which we can showcase our culture.

„Even haute cuisine is likely to become more relaxed and return to its roots. Without a past, there is simply no future; we can only build on the past, and we must not be ashamed of where we came from, of the environment in which we were brought up.” If we apply this statement of yours to Jókai’s list or Bori Ács’s recipe book, what do you think Hungarian chefs and restaurants can do with this today? Is it possible to learn from and build upon these traditional Hungarian dishes?

There’s certainly a lot to be learnt from them, but I’d like to approach this from a slightly different angle, and I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a moment; if you walked into a restaurant and, alongside a dish called ‘katakönyöke’, there was, say, goulash soup, which would you choose?

I’m sure you’d be interested to know what that ‘katakönyöke’ might be.
There is undoubtedly a very small group of people who would be keen to try these things, and I agree that we need to nurture them – but this is a long-term endeavour. Our job is to filter out what we can actually use from this, because for us chefs, the guest’s needs are the most important thing. You can’t run a restaurant just for its own sake. That said, I’m very curious about the recipes mentioned; we’ve also been experimenting in this way, trying to reconstruct long-forgotten dishes. That is precisely why I’d love to have a chat with the author, as he probably has far more experience in this area. Indeed, we could perhaps even organise a dinner to showcase these dishes – after all, what better venue for this than Gundel? At the same time, we’re not only involved in running Gundel, but also the New York Café, where gastronomy and history – just as much as gastronomy and literature – have now become completely intertwined. It was there, too, that famous dishes were created, which, sadly, have since fallen into oblivion.

Other nations take much greater care to explore their own culinary history, yet we have no comprehensive account of our own. How keenly do you chefs feel the absence of this?

There’s actually quite a lot you can read up on. It’s not just Hungarian restaurants – the world is wide open, and you can learn anywhere. Actually, education is the key issue, and I’m no education expert, nor do I have any right to criticise the education system, but what I consider most important is knowledge of ingredients; without that, there is no real knowledge. It’s no use giving someone a recipe; they won’t necessarily be able to cook a meal from it. It’s not the ‘hows’ that matter, but the ‘whys’. It’s likely that we’ll only be able to create truly good food from old recipes if we know the ingredients themselves. I also think it’s important to emphasise that this is a practical profession: you have to taste, handle, chop, bite and crush – that’s how you gain experiential knowledge.

How is the Hungarian farmers’ market faring in terms of raw materials?

People can go on and on about how bad it is, but I don’t see it that way. Producers are also working very hard to produce ever-better raw materials.

I always use English lawns as an example: they’re so beautiful and green because they’ve been watered and mown for five hundred years. We need the same thing, and this is where the chefs’ responsibility comes in: if we find a really good ingredient, it is our responsibility to support the producers by buying it on a regular basis.

Another important point is that there’s no need to constantly change the menu; rather, if you have good quality ingredients, you should use them in accordance with the season. After all, sustainability is also very important in gastronomy, and seasonality – if we follow it – actually achieves this. If we pay attention to these things and support our producers, we too will gradually become like an English lawn.

We’re in the grip of Euro fever, so let’s talk a bit about the national team. Or rather, the Gundel team. What are their chances, and how would Hungarian dishes fare at the World Gastronomy Championships?
If we look at the Bocuse d’Or, it ranks quite highly. Of course, there are far more popular cuisines, and there are many reasons for that. Nevertheless, I believe that anyone encountering Hungarian gastronomy for the first time, tasting Hungarian dishes for the first time, would not rank it very low in this imaginary competition. And I also hope that if a foreign guest comes here and wants to discover Hungarian gastronomy, Gundel will be among their top priorities.

Who is Gundel’s primary target audience? Foreign guests or Hungarian guests?

Foreign and Hungarian guests are equally important,

But Hungarian guests perhaps hold a special place in this respect, in that we can only properly pass on our traditions and gastronomy if we, as Hungarians, also contribute to this. Not to mention that a Hungarian guest has memories of these dishes, has a basis for comparison, and if the food we prepare can evoke a memory in them, then I think we’re doing our job well.